Curse

Gun Pierson · Mar 02, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

{edit} OP. I may be wrong but I think the analogy you were drawing would be The Crusades. That whole "convert or die" mentality. I'm assuming that's the comparison... Not the actual process of murdering people. And I also think those that thought you were making the "murder" comparison aren't really that dumb. I think they're just being smart-asses. And I think we all know it. Sad, little bitter people... My favorite toys.

You're right about my comparison and we indeed know the others are just being smart-asses to derail or laugh it away because that's all they can say.

I might add that I got a few PM's from people that showed their support that way, rather than subject their posts to QQ accusers and flames.

Pandora's box · Mar 02, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kattar

Doesn't seem like ANet was trying to kill solo play or farming, just trying to take away the imba build everyone was using. Same thing they did with Ursan.

Honestly, outside of one build, is there anything else anyone was using to effectively solo farm?

I think that's not the point of the Opp. It is not about the latest SF nerf. It's about nerfing EVERY succesful farming build, since the first 55 monk build nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

.... If you want to play the game "as you like" with no intervention from developers and no input from the community playing it, well, online games are not for you. Get a single player game.

No, there's no rule that tells us that MMORPG's have to be nerfed for farming. We like to play these games. Even so much that we stay tuned even when we need to adjust our gameplay time after time after time. But the Opp is right. It's been enough. It should have been enough 4 years ago when diminishing returns was intruduced for re-entering the same areas. Because there is no reason at all to keep nerfing. The rich grow richer anyway. It only hurts causual gamers...

Quote:

Originally Posted by makafri

Build farms that actually works on todays game

- feather farm with solo monk on napui hm
- destroyer farms are easier now with ele
- vaettir farm are easier too
- the old good farms of 55 monk, necro, mesmer, etc
- the SoS spirit farm on almost everywhere (UW included)

I can continue... but of course you want a farm that gives you thousands of ectos... well that just confirm the point that SF and 600 were overpowered... you don't supposed to be able to farm tons of ectos at least not that fast

Again, its not about the SF nerf. Its about everything that happened the last 5 years. Nice to hear some builds still work. Fact is that the game has become centered around a relatively small group of elite players. Balancing is based on their input. Those who come back after 4 or 6 months of playing and find their only 1 successful build not working anylonger get disappointed and leave once more. And may be laughed at if they had the courage to post in the forum. THAT is the final result of listening to a small playerbase in charge... And it has to stop!

AlsPals · Mar 02, 2010, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

exactly, and you still can mostly--but everyone chose to farm with sf/600 instead because it was broken. thats why sf/600 was bad, and thats why sf/600 was nerfed. so whats your point?

False. Everyone chose to use SF/600 because the old spots were systematically nerfed. Riverside Giants, Ettins, Tengu...all nerfed at some point. SF and 600 rewards stayed constant throughout the life of them, only variance being prices falling, and meant far higher rates of return that Anet allowed for such builds as 55, Monolith farmer, ETC. All other farming methods would still be viable if Loot Scaling didnt exist.

Tramp · Mar 03, 2010, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

I think that's not the point of the Opp. It is not about the latest SF nerf. It's about nerfing EVERY succesful farming build, since the first 55 monk build nerf.

No, there's no rule that tells us that MMORPG's have to be nerfed for farming. We like to play these games. Even so much that we stay tuned even when we need to adjust our gameplay time after time after time. But the Opp is right. It's been enough. It should have been enough 4 years ago when diminishing returns was intruduced for re-entering the same areas. Because there is no reason at all to keep nerfing. The rich grow richer anyway. It only hurts causual gamers...

Again, its not about the SF nerf. Its about everything that happened the last 5 years. Nice to hear some builds still work. Fact is that the game has become centered around a relatively small group of elite players. Balancing is based on their input. Those who come back after 4 or 6 months of playing and find their only 1 successful build not working anylonger get disappointed and leave once more. And may be laughed at if they had the courage to post in the forum. THAT is the final result of listening to a small playerbase in charge... And it has to stop!

Exactly! The customers who paid good money to play this game get screwed over by an elitist bunch of idiots who dont know their head from their ass when it comes to changing skills. As evidenced by the screw up over one the warrior skills that apparently wasnt tested enough, please excuse my laughing, and that SF still dominates every team farming build. The people at corporate really have no flipping clue that every time they take the FUN out of a game by nerfing people's playing styles, it will hurt them in real money when a certain percentage will not buy GW2. 2 million players... piss off 5% and that just cost you 100,000 x $40 = 4 million. This game should accomodate everyone, farmers, solo players, duos, trios, groups, pugs, solo+h/h. But they seem to want to suck the relaxation and fun that a certain percentage of people get from repetitive farming out of the game. Well, hey, good luck to them. They failed with SF cuz it is still here and the build of choice for farming teams. But they got rid of a lot of monks, and more importantly to their company, they lost my future business. I do not want to pay money for a game they are going to clearly attack my playing style and form of entertainment. I am not going to be forced to be x/sin or sin/x to farm elite areas, and I not going to spirit spam for junk. I am not going to pug, not going to h/h, not going to do anything but sell off all my stuff and leave this sorry state of the Inquisition. If I cant play by myself as a monk then I am going to take my pixel toys and my real life money that would have gone for gw2 and /resign.

p.s. I am bitter...

Shuuda · Mar 03, 2010, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

This game should accomodate everyone, farmers, solo players, duos, trios, groups, pugs, solo+h/h.

Er... that would be impossible. Of course, you couldn't understand such things, since your sense of entitlement is bigger than your head.

iTzF3aR · Mar 03, 2010, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

Exactly! The customers who paid good money to play this game get screwed over by an elitist bunch of idiots who dont know their head from their ass when it comes to changing skills. As evidenced by the screw up over one the warrior skills that apparently wasnt tested enough, please excuse my laughing, and that SF still dominates every team farming build. The people at corporate really have no flipping clue that every time they take the FUN out of a game by nerfing people's playing styles, it will hurt them in real money when a certain percentage will not buy GW2. 2 million players... piss off 5% and that just cost you 100,000 x $40 = 4 million. This game should accomodate everyone, farmers, solo players, duos, trios, groups, pugs, solo+h/h. But they seem to want to suck the relaxation and fun that a certain percentage of people get from repetitive farming out of the game. Well, hey, good luck to them. They failed with SF cuz it is still here and the build of choice for farming teams. But they got rid of a lot of monks, and more importantly to their company, they lost my future business. I do not want to pay money for a game they are going to clearly attack my playing style and form of entertainment. I am not going to be forced to be x/sin or sin/x to farm elite areas, and I not going to spirit spam for junk. I am not going to pug, not going to h/h, not going to do anything but sell off all my stuff and leave this sorry state of the Inquisition. If I cant play by myself as a monk then I am going to take my pixel toys and my real life money that would have gone for gw2 and /resign.

p.s. I am bitter...

All I see from this (and from the majority of posters in this thread) is nothing but BAWWWWWW. Take away team farming builds and all of a sudden people feel as if they are being attacked. The reason why 600/smite got fixed is because like SF, people started taking the means from solo farming (can't even fully claim it was a solo farm) and making transforming it in a way to where like SF, it would be able to clear X elite area in Y time. The prime example of this is MQSC and DTSC; both are well known for their quick time/faction ratio for the Luxon/Kurzick title track. Of course, due to obvious game mechanics monks alone (compared to the classic UWSC) would probably never have been able to complete UW <15 minutes. I am happy enough to see that the TK were not idiotic (or turned a blindeye) and saw how 600/smite could have been the next "SF". The Test Krewe is not your enemy, they aren't some "e-bully", or group of elitist bunch of idiots as you claim them to be. Having said that, they try to make the game best for everyone and unfortunately from a rusty start, we have hardly yet to see that. It is IMPOSSIBLE to fufill all players needs as seeing the userbase is just to large. Players like you (ignorant, self-serving biased) need to learn at least a fair balance for some form of this game. If you are going to quit over one simple fix to a skill then you really should take your business else where, good sir.

Deakon · Mar 03, 2010, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Er... that would be impossible. Of course, you couldn't understand such things, since your sense of entitlement is bigger than your head.

And it degrades now into personal attacks. Woe is me! Woe is me! The end is near. The Apocalypse is upon us! lol

Is this the biggest split of the GW community? I wasn't around the first 2 years.

I went town hopping after the update to see what people were saying. The number of people upset was blatantly overwhelming of those in support of the changes. Whether they quit or not... whether they are crappy players or not... doesn't matter. What matters is that Anet upset a huge portion of it's customer base. There's going to be blow back and it's going to hurt them financially. I really can't understand what they were thinking from a business perspective.

I still think it might have been intentional. Less players = lower server loads = lower operating costs.

I have this mental image of the staff stacked 2 to a cubicle, half of the florescent bulbs taken out to save electricity, printing on the back of paper already printed on one side, going from staples to paper clips because they're reusable... lol A one-armed man stole my tin foil hat.

4thVariety · Mar 03, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

At its core the whole argument has always been about jealousy. That is the trigger, somebody is getting more money than people think is adequate.

After that the inquisition picks a target skill. This is a process of social manipulation in the forums, a process of peer pressuring and a process of being the one shouting the loudest for the longest period of time. A process adapted from political talk show hosts and TV stations.

ArenaNet then sacrifices at the altar of balance, while people break into cheers. Because they scored a victory in the "Forum Game" of making other people do what they arbitrarily decided was best.

Was Shadow Form ever the problem? No, because the speed boost in UW is not from Shadow Form, it comes from people splitting up. This know-how cannot be removed. It is not the skill Shadow Form empowering speedclearers, it is the ideas behind the approach empowering them.

Was Ursan ever the problem? No, because with an Imbagon in the back pretty much any team can do what Ursan did, the best proof being DoA Heroway clocking in at around the same time Ursan did.

So yes, the inquisition has to stop. But volatile differences in income also have to be addressed somehow.

iTzF3aR · Mar 03, 2010, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

At its core the whole argument has always been about jealousy. That is the trigger, somebody is getting more money than people think is adequate.

After that the inquisition picks a target skill. This is a process of social manipulation in the forums, a process of peer pressuring and a process of being the one shouting the loudest for the longest period of time. A process adapted from political talk show hosts and TV stations.

ArenaNet then sacrifices at the altar of balance, while people break into cheers. Because they scored a victory in the "Forum Game" of making other people do what they arbitrarily decided was best.

Was Shadow Form ever the problem? No, because the speed boost in UW is not from Shadow Form, it comes from people splitting up. This know-how cannot be removed. It is not the skill Shadow Form empowering speedclearers, it is the ideas behind the approach empowering them.

Was Ursan ever the problem? No, because with an Imbagon in the back pretty much any team can do what Ursan did, the best proof being DoA Heroway clocking in at around the same time Ursan did.

So yes, the inquisition has to stop. But volatile differences in income also have to be addressed somehow.

By inquisition I take it you mean ArenaNet; no. That is completely wrong. If anything it was the exact opposite way around. The people who started complaining about Shadow Form saw how it could easily exploit the whole game of Guild Wars with its almost invincible abilities to making farming/running/areas easy. Also there is a huge difference scale between a small gamy producing company to multi-media companies and political figures. A BIG DIFFERENCE.

This "split-off" you talk about is completely wrong. If you know how SF worked you would see how that splitting off would work as to having a different profession trying to split off to complete X quest.

Do you know also know how Ursan worked as well ? Both classes, Ursan and Imbagon are practically impossible to compare besides their surplus in AR. Can imbagons spam armor ignoring damage one that which does 150 damage, and around 100 aoe damage. Understand how armor works how drastically overpowered Ursan was (or in most cases, still is.)

Once again, this is not some inquisition, this is ArenaNet/TK getting smart and getting the game back on the right track.

akio pwns · Mar 03, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

so wait the op says no QQ/flaming but yet is making this read for what reason other then his ego?

threads like this serve no real reason. If you would know it you wouldnt start this topic, because well who are you to tell "the crowd" what to think? Are you part of the hegemony? No. Lets keep it that way.

BB

Gun Pierson · Mar 03, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by akio pwns

so wait the op says no QQ/flaming but yet is making this read for what reason other then his ego?
BB

If you figure that out you'll get a cookie. It requires thinking beyond your own ego though.

It's not the messenger of this topic that's important here, but the message itself.

4thVariety · Mar 03, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTzF3aR

...

Inquisition is not referring to ArenaNet but a forum phenomenon by which people rejecting some of the current PvE developments refuse to join the trend and rather use posts to have that trend removed from the game. It is a method by which players do not try to restore their fun by posting a proposal, but aim at destroying the fun of others by having a skill removed from the game. As such, this whole phenomenon is bad for the game as it bleeds customers from the game in any scenario.

No build can do the UW in seven minutes alone or with eight players all in one place at all times. The reason why UW suddenly got so fast was because people were working towards completing UW in totally different directions at the same time. One specialized farmer was doing Pits, another one was doing Mount and so on: that is what broke the old speed limit on UW and FoW. While Shadow Form was the dominant build, there are other builds perfectly capable of doing different corners of UW. This idea cannot be taken from the heads of the players, which is why SF might be gone, but the general approach remains the same.

DoA Ursan also benefited from a damage boost inherent in the Lightbringer title. But so do all classes in UW. Baseline Ursan strike is 150 Damage every 4 Seconds, which is not that much. But it makes for a nasty spike, especially since Ursan teams always knew in which order to take down the enemies. A skill many random Melee-Ways lack these days. Compared to the damage a Crit-Scythe Sin can dish out, Ursan is a tame build. The reason why Crit-Scythe is not as dominant as Ursan right now, is because UW splits are still faster and Tank&Spank-DoA is still faster. But put some proper defense behind Crit-Scythe and you have a monster, if those faster methods vanish. But why would they, the secret of fast DoA runs was more in HOW you approached tanking, not which skill made it possible.

Orry · Mar 03, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

Inquisition is not referring to ArenaNet but a forum phenomenon by which people rejecting some of the current PvE developments refuse to join the trend and rather use posts to have that trend removed from the game. It is a method by which players do not try to restore their fun by posting a proposal, but aim at destroying the fun of others by having a skill removed from the game. As such, this whole phenomenon is bad for the game as it bleeds customers from the game in any scenario.

No build can do the UW in seven minutes alone or with eight players all in one place at all times. The reason why UW suddenly got so fast was because people were working towards completing UW in totally different directions at the same time. One specialized farmer was doing Pits, another one was doing Mount and so on: that is what broke the old speed limit on UW and FoW. While Shadow Form was the dominant build, there are other builds perfectly capable of doing different corners of UW. This idea cannot be taken from the heads of the players, which is why SF might be gone, but the general approach remains the same.

DoA Ursan also benefited from a damage boost inherent in the Lightbringer title. But so do all classes in UW. Baseline Ursan strike is 150 Damage every 4 Seconds, which is not that much. But it makes for a nasty spike, especially since Ursan teams always knew in which order to take down the enemies. A skill many random Melee-Ways lack these days. Compared to the damage a Crit-Scythe Sin can dish out, Ursan is a tame build. The reason why Crit-Scythe is not as dominant as Ursan right now, is because UW splits are still faster and Tank&Spank-DoA is still faster. But put some proper defense behind Crit-Scythe and you have a monster, if those faster methods vanish. But why would they, the secret of fast DoA runs was more in HOW you approached tanking, not which skill made it possible.

Ursan wasn't powerful because of the damage, or the armour, it was the blanket knockdown from Ursan Rage and the weakness from Ursan Roar. Good try though.

UnChosen · Mar 03, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Ursan wasn't powerful because of the damage, or the armour, it was the blanket knockdown from Ursan Rage and the weakness from Ursan Roar. Good try though.

The knockdown only affects the ease of the run, not the speed. As long as someone find a way to tank a mob + a way to get massive AoE damage, DoA can still be cleared just as fast. Anet cannot "nerf" this unless they take away tanking and AoE damage.

This is the main point he is trying to get across. Its the METHOD and game design that enables the speed clears. Anet nerf one tanking skills and one AoE damage skill, everyone just moves on to the next best. Meanwhile, normal pug players get screwed with losing one skill after another.

They want to get rid of speed clear? Make it so that people can't "split" in UW and change the AI / mob damage so that tanking would not be required in DoA.

AlsPals · Mar 03, 2010, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

The knockdown only affects the ease of the run, not the speed. As long as someone find a way to tank a mob + a way to get massive AoE damage, DoA can still be cleared just as fast. Anet cannot "nerf" this unless they take away tanking and AoE damage.

This is the main point he is trying to get across. Its the METHOD and game design that enables the speed clears. Anet nerf one tanking skills and one AoE damage skill, everyone just moves on to the next best. Meanwhile, normal pug players get screwed with losing one skill after another.

They want to get rid of speed clear? Make it so that people can't "split" in UW and change the AI / mob damage so that tanking would not be required in DoA.

Not gonna disagree, the AI allows for the shenanigans everyone gets away with. 2 things though: UW can be redone to function like Slavers, so you dont have to do everything in one long session. Secondly, the Knocklocks made Ursan as notorious as it was. Without it, it could do the job, but lets face it, BB and Steelfang was horrible for the same reason. AOE knocklocks? Steamroll PVE more?

snaek · Mar 03, 2010, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by alspals

False. Everyone chose to use SF/600 because the old spots were systematically nerfed. Riverside Giants, Ettins, Tengu...all nerfed at some point. SF and 600 rewards stayed constant throughout the life of them, only variance being prices falling, and meant far higher rates of return that Anet allowed for such builds as 55, Monolith farmer, ETC. All other farming methods would still be viable if Loot Scaling didnt exist.

yes, certain farms were nerfed over the years. however i don't think there has ever been a period in gw where there was a 'farming drought' where not even a single decent farm was available. and that was my point, alternatives always exist even if they aren't as effective. the farmer's mentality is that they will usually cling to the farm that generally yields the greatest profit/efficiency--in this case, sf/600 was head and shoulder above the rest. numerous amount of ecto farming builds still exist.

imo, "full underworld clear" and "farm" and/or "solo" should never be used in the same sentence.

i'm pretty sure that the "end chests" in uw and also in eotn dungeons we're implemented to provide incentive to gather a full team and complete the dungeon. not for farmers to transition from "farming spots" to "speed clears".

AlsPals · Mar 03, 2010, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

yes, certain farms were nerfed over the years. however i don't think there has ever been a period in gw where there was a 'farming drought' where not even a single decent farm was available. and that was my point, alternatives always exist even if they aren't as effective. the farmer's mentality is that they will usually cling to the farm that generally yields the greatest profit/efficiency--in this case, sf/600 was head and shoulder above the rest. numerous amount of ecto farming builds still exist.

imo, "full underworld clear" and "farm" and/or "solo" should never be used in the same sentence.

i'm pretty sure that the "end chests" in uw and also in eotn dungeons we're implemented to provide incentive to gather a full team and complete the dungeon. not for farmers to transition from "farming spots" to "speed clears".

Oh, definately not. There was always someway to effectively farm, but Anet was fairly swift, even about ones we didn't think they cared about(vermin and such.) The problem is, even for speed clears and such, whether or not the people are actually thinking they are farming, they are taking in rarities at rates lots of farmers dream of. Therefore, more people went to such methods but with different goals in mind. I still say if we dumped Loot Scaling and went back to Anti-Farm code, the methods of obtaining loot for a variety of different reasons will be consistently more rewarding.

Lycan Nibbler · Mar 03, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

This game should accomodate everyone, farmers, solo players, duos, trios, groups, pugs, solo+h/h.

As has been said, it is impossible to accommodate everyone all the time. The fact is, there has not been and wont be significant new content (unless I get a real shock) so one of the few ways left to try and keep the game "fresh" (yes I know - but go with me here) is to change the skills so people get a new challenge.

I personally believe that the fact anet annouced well in advance how they were going to nerf SF with a small mention to 600/smite created expectations.
Then when the update came out, it was seen that SF was barely wounded (and indeed, improved for none Sins), 600/smite was hurt significantly and OF was smite booned - seemed opposite of the expectations created - hence the outbreak of QQing.
I think many more people used 600/smite to play the game themselves quietly for fun and werent really a part of the Nerf perma SF threads. I thought they would probably just reduce the damage on holy wrath so it was still useable in many areas, just slower but maybe thats why I am not on the TK

Del · Mar 03, 2010, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycan Nibbler

... OF was smite booned )..

if by smiter's booned you mean buffed.

bhavv · Mar 03, 2010, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tramp

Exactly! The customers who paid good money to play this game get screwed over by an elitist bunch of idiots who dont know their head from their ass when it comes to changing skills. As evidenced by the screw up over one the warrior skills that apparently wasnt tested enough, please excuse my laughing, and that SF still dominates every team farming build. The people at corporate really have no flipping clue that every time they take the FUN out of a game by nerfing people's playing styles, it will hurt them in real money when a certain percentage will not buy GW2. 2 million players... piss off 5% and that just cost you 100,000 x $40 = 4 million. This game should accomodate everyone, farmers, solo players, duos, trios, groups, pugs, solo+h/h. But they seem to want to suck the relaxation and fun that a certain percentage of people get from repetitive farming out of the game. Well, hey, good luck to them. They failed with SF cuz it is still here and the build of choice for farming teams. But they got rid of a lot of monks, and more importantly to their company, they lost my future business. I do not want to pay money for a game they are going to clearly attack my playing style and form of entertainment. I am not going to be forced to be x/sin or sin/x to farm elite areas, and I not going to spirit spam for junk. I am not going to pug, not going to h/h, not going to do anything but sell off all my stuff and leave this sorry state of the Inquisition. If I cant play by myself as a monk then I am going to take my pixel toys and my real life money that would have gone for gw2 and /resign.

p.s. I am bitter...

Exactly how I feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Er... that would be impossible. Of course, you couldn't understand such things, since your sense of entitlement is bigger than your head.

It is not impossible. DDO allows all kinds of playstyle to exist with something called 'Difficulty Levels'. You can solo quite a lot of that game and get great loot on lower difficulty if you want to, but they promote group play by offering better rewards on higher difficulties which require you to be in a group.

Balancing both solo and multiplay is hardly difficult and entirely possible, if the game isnt being ran by a team of monkeys that is.